Adoption Survivor

dealing with it

It’s all about me

with 31 comments

One of THE most offensive arguments for adoption I have ever witnessed.  If I had more time in life I would write down the transcripts and tear it apart.

I am sooo, sooo sorry for Dana Horton’s children.

They will probably spend their lives on a couch trying to figure out what happened to them…

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Written by girl4708

October 19, 2008 at 4:25 am

31 Responses

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  1. “Thru Jesus, God adopts us.”

    Who came up with this line of BS?

    maybe

    October 24, 2008 at 3:46 pm

  2. Notice how she said “it just seemed natural” only AFTER she accepted that she was infertile?

    *cough* Second choice *cough*

    Mei-Ling

    October 25, 2008 at 9:51 pm

  3. Can I puke now?

    lorraine dusky

    October 26, 2008 at 10:35 pm

  4. “God places the lonely in families”

    ADOPTION CREATES THE LONELY IN FAMILIES!!!!!!

    Okay, I’ll head over and throw up with Lorraine

    KristySearching

    October 27, 2008 at 1:58 am

  5. I don’t understand the problem. Is it better for babies and toddlers to grow up in orphanages where they don’t get the love, cuddling, stimulation, interaction, and boundaries they need to grow into happy people? I’m sincerely asking, because the level of outrage in response to this baffles me, and it seems obvious I am missing something.

    As for us being adopted by God in Jesus, that’s from Galatians 4, among other places: “But when the fulness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children. And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    It means that nobody is born into God’s family, but only adopted through baptism.

    Katherine C. Teel

    October 28, 2008 at 6:41 pm

  6. The God thing. Isn’t that using God’s name in vain when it comes to a huge adoption industry that makes billions of dollars off human lives? Adoption is not about providing adults with children. Adoption is about providing children with families. Is it God’s plan to let kidnappers steal children to have them sold to unsuspecting adoptive parents? A dear of friend of mine made a comment once. If adoption is so great which child are you willing to give up? Probably none. The adoption industry is unregulated big business. Its not about saving lives. Some of these children if not a majority of these children are in orphanages because their families can’t afford to care for them. These original families are fighting to make things right to bring that child back home. It is not because they don’t love them they do.

    There is still way too much theft, corruption, lying, deception and more in adoption. There are too many myths still being perpetrated against the three legs of the foot stool with the state and the adoption agencies controling the information.

    Amyadoptee

    October 29, 2008 at 1:04 am

  7. Katherine: Ah yes… gotta use God’s name to protect adoption, right?

    So, wouldn’t it be logical that the same God would have caused poverty/malnutrition/financial stress/abuse in foreign countries so that adoption *could* be done, hm?

    I once received a comment on my blog by a Christian who said something along the lines of: “Perhaps I do use God as an explanation, because it seems like the only thing that would make sense (in terms of poverty BEFORE adoption occurs). Any other explanation would have harmed psychologically.”

    In other words, an adoptive parent cannot face consequences, so… take out the “it was God’s idea!” explanation, and everything is perfect again.

    No, adoptive parents do NOT cause poverty/malnutrition/financial situations in foreign countries. But it IS their responsibility to recognize that adoption cannot occur without an original family being torn up first. It does not matter if we’re talking about the One-Child Policy in China, if a mother is poor in Guatemala, or if she happens to be unwed in Korea. Her unfortunate circumstance is the ONLY reason why adoptive parents are able to get a child. Period.

    And so, if it is utterly impossible for a child to be given back (which isn’t always impossible in a lot of cases), and if the child must absolutely removed from their culture, then it is the responsibility of the adoptive parent to provide as many links to that country of origin as possible.

    “What? Why is it OUR responsibility?”

    Because you made the choice to adopt. Because you consented to adoption, and therefore took on ALL the privileges of raising a child that has genetics ties elsewhere.

    Mei-Ling

    October 29, 2008 at 1:57 am

  8. “Kids are kids- they’re going to have the exact same struggles as any other kid”.

    Umm, yeah. Wanna bet??? Most of the stuff that came out of their mouths was totally irresponsible for an adoptive parent to say…almost bordering on child neglect/abuse.
    I suggest these parents get a copy of “The Primal Wound” asap.

    linda

    October 29, 2008 at 2:35 am

  9. Mei-Ling, I didn’t use God’s name to protect adoption, the adoption industry, or anyone else. Someone had asked about the remark in the video about being adopted by God, and I was simply giving the biblical reference.

    I’ve read The Primal Wound, and frankly, it doesn’t describe the experience of anyone I know. Obviously it resonates deeply with many people, so I’m willing to grant that I know a whole lot of atypical people.

    So, because my experience and that of all the people I know is so unusual, I still don’t understand exactly what was irresponsible about these parents in this video. I didn’t see any indication that they planned to pretend their kids weren’t Korean, or that they wouldn’t provide links to the culture of the kids’ birth. Is it simply removing children from the culture of their birth that is a problem?

    Katherine C. Teel

    October 29, 2008 at 4:47 am

  10. Personally, I didn’t ask to be adopted out to a foreign country.
    The money to buy food would have been enough for me.
    Yes, I wanted to stay at the orphanage where I had been told they were going to find my family members.

    As for babies in orphanages, they would be less orphans if Christians could help the poors as Jesus taught by sponsoring instead of adopting. The cost of one adoption could save many families or even a whole village and adoption doesn’t reduce poverty.

    30 years ago, I was made adoptable without the consent of my family. Today, the demand of would-be parents is much more important than 30 years ago. Adoption only creates more orphans and fuels the child trafficking.

    Don’t compare adoption by God to adoption by human. Adoption by God is a spiritual. God doesn’t remove you from the earth, from your family or from your country by adopting you.

    kimette

    October 29, 2008 at 5:51 am

  11. People who say they have a right to do something because they “feel drawn” to it–these people, in my experience, are always rationalizing something having to do with the white privilege they spend their life denying. ALWAYS.

    I hear it from wannabe Native Americans who don’t care that the real ones are offended by their “shamanism,” and I hear it from white people who are afraid of Asians yet feel entitled to one.

    I’ve never even heard a non-white person use the phrase “felt drawn.” It’s like an unconscious buzz-phrase.

    Laurel

    October 29, 2008 at 11:01 am

  12. “I’ve read The Primal Wound, and frankly, it doesn’t describe the experience of anyone I know.”

    And you know this for a fact… how? You do realize that a lot of adoptees will give you the party line “Adoption is awesome!” because that’s what they think you want to hear?

    I’m not saying every adoptee out there is traumatized. I’m saying that you shouldn’t assume something just because they don’t shout it in your face – again, because regardless of whether or not they feel that way, they know *you* don’t want to hear that.

    “I didn’t see any indication that they planned to pretend their kids weren’t Korean, or that they wouldn’t provide links to the culture of the kids’ birth.”

    No no… you’re missing the point. Admitting that your child is of another origin is just the start. Adoptive parents need to go far beyond that – attend Korean classes, eat the food, celebrate festivals, learn about Korean history (okay, that one isn’t as interesting!), learn about Korean-American communities, etc.

    Saying that an adoptive parent will provide links is an easy thing to do rather than to just say. And if they’re too busy spouting off about how it was God’s miracle, that implies to me that they simply don’t see it as enough importance because they think it was destiny that a child was taken from their homeplace. Therefore, since it was “meant to be”, the culture is not important enough, the language is not important and the links to immigrants isn’t important enough either.

    When people say “it was fate”, they usually mean that in the case of the adoption, not the separation. However, what they need to realize is that the adoption was only possible *because* of the separation. There’s no getting around it.

    “Is it simply removing children from the culture of their birth that is a problem?”

    It is the fact that *some* adoptive parents think they are entitled to overseas children. Because they “feel drawn” to it. Because they cannot conceive “their own.” Because they’re convinced their kid will be more “American” in the future, etc. The list goes on.

    These same folks who feel drawn to a country say those things because they are interested in the culture (as *tourists*) – NOT necessarily because they want to keep links alive to that culture. There is a world of difference between those two.

    Mei-Ling

    October 29, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  13. You make an excellent point; though I have had some in-depth conversations with many people, I have no way of knowing what they might be hiding from me. I would be surprised to know that they weren’t being fully forthcoming, but again, how would I know? Thank you for bringing that to my attention; I will try to be more aware of that from now on. Do you think it is acceptable for me to simply tell them that I want to know more about their struggles and pain, and ask them not just to tell me about the good stuff?

    I don’t think the blame for these tragic and criminal situations lies with the adoptive parents (granted, I may be a bit defensive on their behalf, being one myself). I think it lies with people and agencies who treat children like commodities. I am completely sure that if an American couple was told that their prospective child had been kidnapped or was being adopted without the knowledge or consent of the parents, they would never go through with it. Part of what motivates these parents is knowing that there are children who need a good home, and they have a home to offer. If the children don’t really need the home, they shouldn’t be sent to it. But adoptive parents have been lied to as much as anyone else.

    Thank you for being so patient with my questions. I appreciate your willingness to explain things.

    Katherine C. Teel

    October 29, 2008 at 10:52 pm

  14. “Do you think it is acceptable for me to simply tell them that I want to know more about their struggles and pain, and ask them not just to tell me about the good stuff?”

    You could, although I’m not sure how well that approach would work. You would have to enter this with the mindset of really, earnestly wanting to learn and understand rather than just doing this to “please” adoptees. Because what you hear… may be harsh. And they might not think you’re being serious about it – “party line”, remember?

    ” think it lies with people and agencies who treat children like commodities.”

    Wow. You and I agree on something! Woo hoo!

    “I am completely sure that if an American couple was told that their prospective child had been kidnapped or was being adopted without the knowledge or consent of the parents, they would never go through with it.”

    The problem is, no agency is going to say that. No agency will even want to admit that because that is how they gain their profit – from adoption. And it’s not like the adoptive parents will know.

    No, it isn’t the APs’ faults. But you have to realize that they are responsible to try and incorporate/encourage as much of the culture as possible. I’m not talking about dragon dances and Chinese New Year. I’m talking about going downtown and immersing yourself in an Asian-American environment – hearing the language, eating the food chopstick-style (if you do it, your child will feel encouraged to do it!), watching TV shows (youtube!), getting DVDs in that language, etc.

    You don’t have to burden your child all day with that stuff, but try to make it more of a balance. If circumstances absolutely dictated that she could not have stayed within her culture… then the next best thing is to integrate the culture/language as much as possible… and to make it FUN!

    Mei-Ling

    October 30, 2008 at 1:01 am

  15. Alot of people who know me, don’t know I am adopted, I have to be very, very close to someone to even reveal that. If someone were to approach me as a case study, I would be offended.

    The books aren’t lying.

    I think the most effective thing is to think on adoption without all the feel good slogans in your head. How would you feel about a stranger filling out paper work that changed your identity forever?

    joy21

    October 30, 2008 at 6:48 pm

  16. “I don’t think the blame for these tragic and criminal situations lies with the adoptive parents (granted, I may be a bit defensive on their behalf, being one myself). I think it lies with people and agencies who treat children like commodities. I am completely sure that if an American couple was told that their prospective child had been kidnapped or was being adopted without the knowledge or consent of the parents, they would never go through with it. ”

    Katherine, I would like to think that the majority of adoptive and potential adoptive parents would not think this way. Who would be willing particpate in an adoption after being told the child was kidnapped or the parents did not give consent? For potential legal implications, probably most would not. But some would. Some have paid up front for an adoption or given the agency a hefty deposit, they have invested in adoption both financially and emotionally and want their product delivered pronto. People tend to avoid the realities of adoption corruption, simply because they are deperate to become parents.

    Unfortunately, I have heard of many adoptive parents choosing overseas adoption because there is liltte to no chance that the child’s parents will find them. I find that deplorable. These people choose to think this way, as they have obviously done enough research on adoption to know that separated families do wish to be found and reunited with one another.

    Michelle

    October 31, 2008 at 3:47 am

  17. “Who would be willing particpate in an adoption after being told the child was kidnapped or the parents did not give consent?”

    That’s exactly what I said. Sure, the PAPs and APs would not have participated in an adoption if they knew coercion or fraud was a part of it… but HOW would they know that? The agencies could “feed” them anything as long as the agencies get the profit. They want “customers” regardless of how those customers came to the decision of filing for adoption.

    For those who go, “How would *you* know this?”, I say: look at Guatemala. Did you know that agencies were forcing women to become pregnant JUST for the sole purpose of collecting babies so that the agencies could make profit through adoption “arrangements”? It was coercion. It was assault. But nobody wanted to speak up about it until the news somehow leaked and the agencies had to shut down because unethical practices were suspected.

    Hell, even look at China. Seen the documentary “China’s Lost Children”? People were doing CHILD TRAFFICKING, and SELLING those children WITHOUT the consent of their parents!

    Now tell me that the PAP/APs would not be adopting if it weren’t for that, because they would not even KNOW.

    Mei-Ling

    November 1, 2008 at 12:35 am

  18. What I don’t understand is why paps aren’t curious about the child’s family and relatives. Wouldn’t they want to talk to the parents and ask if they really do want their child to be adopted, and adopted into another country? Even if an agency said the child was abandoned – wouldn’t paps do their own search/research just to satisify their own curitosity and for the child?

    I worked in an orpahange in Eastern Europe, there was about 80 kids in the wing I worked in. I was constantly asking the cargivers (staff) about the children’s families. There was one little guy who I spent a lot time with and every time we were out in the park or wherever, I was always looking for his mother – I was hoping he would see her! The orphanage staff told me about his parents circumstances. One time at the park he practically jumped out of my arms when he saw a woman, so I figured he must have known her, but she didn’t seem to know him.

    I was totally curious about the kid’s parents and would have reunited them all if I could have. But, I wasn’t there adopt a child because I wanted to become a parent. Maybe if I had been I wouldn’t have been so determined to know about the children’s backgrounds.

    Michelle

    November 1, 2008 at 1:20 am

  19. Another pamphlet you should read is “A Carrot Among The Sticks” It tells DHS workers which children to steal so that they can put them up for adoption and make money from the Federal Government. These parents go out of the country to adopt because the laws are a lot more lax then they are here in the states. Plus if it is illegal which some are these parents can’t possibly fight because they are so far away and have no options.

    Dana

    November 1, 2008 at 3:32 pm

  20. The content of the video wants to make me puke.
    Knowing that I contributed to increase it’s popularity by watching it makes me want to puke.

    If you have a youtube account, please don’t forget to rate it. Such video doesn’t deserve to be popular.

    kimette

    November 1, 2008 at 5:48 pm

  21. As an adoptee this is sickening. I resent common buzz words, “best interests” “right thing to do” . The “right thing” to do is allow a child to maintain its own identity and its rightful place in its own true family. My real mother was pressured into surrender of me because she was not married to my father. Her sister-in-law even stated adoption was mandatory because “God never intended for a woman to bear and raise a child like myself” – out of wedlock, that is. Well, my mother listened and complied, and went from being a beautiful, intelligent, talented, sober, non-smoking person of immense promise to a promiscuous, foul-mouthed, hardcore alcoholic, chain smoking, guilt-ridden woman who never got over that traumatic and unnecessary loss. I grew up being taunted by classmates who would call me “little bastard” or “little reject” – words I now realize were mean spirited and ignoranat. But, how was a 7 year old supposed to have processed such cruelty. In other words, she and I are the “face” or “side” of adoption the pro-life, adoption toting individuals don’t want anyone to see. It isn’t always a happily-ever-after fairy tale filled with pictures of happy, smiling, “everything is just so wonderful” children.

    Shanna (birth name) / Ruth (adoptive name)

    November 7, 2008 at 9:40 am

  22. Mei-Ling,
    why do you keep saying you were “intended” on being raised in Taiwan? Why do you think you were “intended” to speak a different language or culture than the one you speak? Just because someone was born in another country doesn’t mean they were “intended” to speak that language. If your birth parents were rich and accidently had you in France, but then gave you up anyway, would you be pissed you didn’t grow up speaking French? Or what if you would have found out that they moved to Russia right after they relinquished you, and raised other sibling(s) to speak Russian. Would you feel cheated from Russian culture? What’s the obsession with genetics and culture? It almost seems racist to think that every person who is genetically tied to a country should be speaking that language. Geez, everybody who speaks regular old English is pissed we’re not fluent in some other language, if that was such a problem, you’d learn the language, you’d learn the culture, it’s never too late for that.

    If your saying your birth parents absolutely did not intend for you to be adopted overseas, and specified that specifically, than I suppose you should be speaking Mandarin, or whatever they specified. But if they knew there was that chance, and didn’t specify otherwise (although I really think in general they give up all of these rights when they relinquish) then I guess it’s safe to say they left this up to chance. Do you think the baby Jesus wanted you to speak Mandarin? (I’m being facetious). Language is not genetic, culture is not genetic, you don’t genetically belong anywhere more than another other place. You may be angry that your birth parents gave strangers the option to decide where you grew up and the language you would speak, but I really don’t see how it is the AP’s job to help you keep the cultural ties in which your birth parents didn’t see as an inheritant right for you. Culture is just another word for politics, the food is different, the language is different, the customs are different, but you can’t say any of that one culture is better than another and that genetically you would have been better off speaking Mandarin or English? The point is, it didn’t really matter where you grew up, but what might bug you is that that didn’t matter to people whom you feel it should have mattered to. Well, it didn’t matter enough for them not to relinquish you. Acting like you were “meant” to be Taiwanese reminds me of the creepy Christian AP’s who say God meant for
    them to adopt. How can you know for sure what was suppose to be the right thing for you?

    (and really this is a rhetorical analogy, and not really directed toward your situation specifically, I’m just using your reaction as an example).

    Dee

    March 14, 2009 at 4:34 am

  23. “why do you keep saying you were “intended” on being raised in Taiwan?”

    Why does this bother you so much?

    “Why do you think you were “intended” to speak a different language or culture than the one you speak? Just because someone was born in another country doesn’t mean they were “intended” to speak that language.”

    It isn’t just about culture and language. It’s about family separation. It’s like saying, “Well you were adopted so *obviously* you weren’t meant to be with the parents that birthed you.” That hurts.

    “If your birth parents were rich and accidently had you in France, but then gave you up anyway, would you be pissed you didn’t grow up speaking French?”

    It depends on if that alternate “me” had contacted them.

    “Or what if you would have found out that they moved to Russia right after they relinquished you, and raised other sibling(s) to speak Russian. Would you feel cheated from Russian culture?”

    Yes, very likely.

    “It almost seems racist to think that every person who is genetically tied to a country should be speaking that language.”

    … what? This is not the correct context for being racist. To be racist towards a particular ethnicity is to believe one ethnicity is better than another. That is not true. I do not recall ever saying I believe being born a certain ethnicity is better than any other ethnicity.

    “if that was such a problem, you’d learn the language, you’d learn the culture, it’s never too late for that.”

    You’re missing the point. It isn’t just about culture and language.

    “If your saying your birth parents absolutely did not intend for you to be adopted overseas, and specified that specifically, than I suppose you should be speaking Mandarin, or whatever they specified.”

    Very few parents overseas ever fully, completely “intend” for their children to be adopted. Very few WANT to have their children taken away. It’s usually the desperate people who are controlled by a non-democratic government who are forced into doing this.

    “But if they knew there was that chance, and didn’t specify otherwise (although I really think in general they give up all of these rights when they relinquish) then I guess it’s safe to say they left this up to chance.”

    My goodness, are you trying to speak on their behalf?

    “Language is not genetic, culture is not genetic, you don’t genetically belong anywhere more than another other place.”

    Wrong. I genetically belong with the mother and father who birthed me. I will NOT have a complete stranger tell me otherwise. It is my birthright. It is not my job to make you feel comfortable if you cannot make the effort to understand where I am coming from on this issue.

    “You may be angry that your birth parents gave strangers the option to decide where you grew up and the language you would speak, but I really don’t see how it is the AP’s job to help you keep the cultural ties in which your birth parents didn’t see as an inheritant right for you.”

    I’m sorry. I cannot respond to this appropriately because it is so demeaning and assumes so much about my Taiwanese parents.

    “Culture is just another word for politics, the food is different, the language is different, the customs are different, but you can’t say any of that one culture is better than another and that genetically you would have been better off speaking Mandarin or English?”

    *Where* have I EVER stated it was “better”? Please do point that out.

    “The point is, it didn’t really matter where you grew up, but what might bug you is that that didn’t matter to people whom you feel it should have mattered to.”

    To you, maybe not. To me? I decide otherwise how *I* want to feel regarding this. It is MY birthright and you cannot dictate to me how I should feel, nor can you assume that my “birthparents” didn’t think it was important on the basis that I am adopted. I find that rather presumptuous.

    “Well, it didn’t matter enough for them not to relinquish you.”

    Stop speaking for them.

    “Acting like you were “meant” to be Taiwanese reminds me of the creepy Christian AP’s who say God meant for
    them to adopt. How can you know for sure what was suppose to be the right thing for you?”

    Why? Because it scares you? Because it challenges what you believe in? Because you’re insecure that your own adopted child might grow up to think this way?

    (and really this is a rhetorical analogy, and not really directed toward your situation specifically, I’m just using your reaction as an example)

    In other words, you’re trying to test me.

    If you intended to challenge me and piss me off, congrats. You got that, too.

    Mei-Ling

    March 14, 2009 at 9:13 pm

  24. Mei-Ling,
    okay, I get it, no deed good or bad goes unpunished. It’s always been the way of the world. But let me tell you one thing, if my adopted child grows up to see her adoption the way you do. If she’s huffing and puffing about this “birthright stuff” if she’s pissed she can’t speak Amharic, and no bandaid is helping her “primal wound”, I will absolutely one hundred percent down to my core, love her anyway, and she will know it. She can call me her captor, she can call me a baby stealer, she can scream a thousand times she hates me, and mourn for her eternally martyred birthmother. And still I will go on to love her unconditionally until the day I die, because I want to be a person she can count on.

    The truth is the more you know, the less you know, and that’s life. You can make up your mind about this issue, you can decide what would have been so much better for you, you can be indignant and tell me what your “birthrights” were. And I could tell you my side of things, and huff and puff that I am in fact just in my reasoning. Sometimes the only real answers are the questions themselves.

    The truth is Mei-Ling, I don’t know any more than you about what the “right ” thing is. Would my daughter’s birth mother have kept her if she were alive and we gave her money? I don’t know because I didn’t try to, because i didn’t want to. I don’t recognize these genetic rights the way you seem to recognize them, I just don’t think there as important as you seem to be making them. Maybe my views on this are because i was relinquished myself, and I was relinquished by a mother who had every opportunity to keep all of her children but didn’t. Do I feel I had a RIGHT to her love for me? Not really. I don’t have a RIGHT to be connected (or have a relationship with) anyone in this world if they don’t want to be connected to me, and despite what your personal circumstances may have been, adoption is about parents relinquishing their rights to a child. And despite what you may think, parents have every right to give away children they have given birth to. The child has no say in the situation because it would be unfair if any person was forced to have a relationship with someone they decided they didn’t want to have a relationship with. Sure, sometimes they change their minds about the relinquishment, or they say they do, but then what? It’s odd, because my mom relinquished me when I was twelve, and I felt pain, real true rip your guts out pain, and later, it seemed like every time I had a boyfriend who broke up with me, or a friend who moved away, I always went to that primal source of pain. Rejection sucks. It sucks so bad that it can almost kill you, and I hope that was not your story. I hope you were stolen from your mothers breast, I hope you were ripped from her arms and she was dazed with trauma. Because that would mean you were never relinquished, never given away, never should have been adopted in the first place. Who wouldn’t want that? Really, who wouldn’t?

    Dee

    March 14, 2009 at 11:01 pm

  25. “okay, I get it, no deed good or bad goes unpunished.”

    It’s not about just the “good” or “bad” aspects. It’s understanding that everything has consequences, however good the intentions were.

    “But let me tell you one thing, if my adopted child grows up to see her adoption the way you do. If she’s huffing and puffing about this “birthright stuff” if she’s pissed she can’t speak Amharic, and no bandaid is helping her “primal wound”

    I do not fully believe in the primal wound. And the way you’ve written “huffing and puffing” and “birthright stuff” conveys to me that you have no real interest in learning. It seems to be irrelevant to you. But perhaps I am wrong?

    “I will absolutely one hundred percent down to my core, love her anyway, and she will know it.”

    I would bet that she already knows that.

    “She can call me her captor, she can call me a baby stealer, she can scream a thousand times she hates me, and mourn for her eternally martyred birthmother.”

    “birthmothers” aren’t martyred. They are people, just like you. Do you “see” her birthmother as less because she abandoned her daughter? (Note: I see you’ve certainly been around the blogosphere…)

    “And still I will go on to love her unconditionally until the day I die, because I want to be a person she can count on.”

    I would not dispute that. No need to tell me.

    “You can make up your mind about this issue, you can decide what would have been so much better for you, you can be indignant and tell me what your “birthrights” were.”

    You asked me why I felt it was so important. Because it’s ME. Because it’s what *I* feel. What other answer did you expect to read?

    They were my birthrights. They belonged to me at birth.

    “And I could tell you my side of things, and huff and puff that I am in fact just in my reasoning. Sometimes the only real answers are the questions themselves.”

    In other words you’re saying “Kindly shut up because everyone has their own demons.” Noted.

    “The truth is Mei-Ling, I don’t know any more than you about what the “right ” thing is. Would my daughter’s birth mother have kept her if she were alive and we gave her money? I don’t know because I didn’t try to, because i didn’t want to.”

    Because you wanted to raise your daughter through adoption?

    “I don’t recognize these genetic rights the way you seem to recognize them, I just don’t think there as important as you seem to be making them. Maybe my views on this are because i was relinquished myself, and I was relinquished by a mother who had every opportunity to keep all of her children but didn’t. Do I feel I had a RIGHT to her love for me? Not really. I don’t have a RIGHT to be connected (or have a relationship with) anyone in this world if they don’t want to be connected to me, and despite what your personal circumstances may have been, adoption is about parents relinquishing their rights to a child.”

    Only you wouldn’t have ever relinquished your child, right? So that makes them “less”?

    “And despite what you may think, parents have every right to give away children they have given birth to. The child has no say in the situation because it would be unfair if any person was forced to have a relationship with someone they decided they didn’t want to have a relationship with.”

    This is assuming the person didn’t *want* a relationship. Your perspective is based on the assumption that my mother didn’t feel I was important enough to keep? Or that my culture/language wasn’t important enough to them to warrant keeping me in the family?

    You’re wrong on both accounts.

    “Sure, sometimes they change their minds about the relinquishment, or they say they do, but then what?”

    Oh dear. *What*?

    “I hope you were stolen from your mothers breast, I hope you were ripped from her arms and she was dazed with trauma. Because that would mean you were never relinquished, never given away, never should have been adopted in the first place. Who wouldn’t want that? Really, who wouldn’t?”

    Are you trying to use reverse psychology on me by “agreeing” with all the stereotypes about “angry” adoptees?

    If grief does not show, it does not mean the relinquishment didn’t happen. It does not mean the mother did not grieve. It does not mean there weren’t consequences. It does not mean the pain will never affect anyone ever again.

    You can heal, but you don’t forget.

    There’s a difference.

    Mei-Ling

    March 15, 2009 at 12:01 am

  26. Sometimes “the only real answers are the questions themselves” actually I swiped this from Plato after i read “Allegory of the Cave” i highly recommend it!

    Really it just means that it’s sometimes better to keep asking questions but not to pretend to have the answers because certain people always see about thirty ways to a story at once. It’s hard to blame anyone for anything when you see their side of it.

    You need to understand that both of us taking our personal accounts into a debate about adoption is quite ridiculous. Not that I don’t do it, because I do, but when I talk about “your story” I don’t mean you personally, I mean anyone who has a similar story, and if you don’t fit that exact mold then what I am referring to just becomes hypothetical or generic. I’m not saying your birth parents didn’t want you, but this is ADOPTION we are talking about here. Most, not ALL, but most adoptions that happen, happen because parents relinquish their children willingly, It’s easy to focus on your situation, which is, I am assuming not like most adoptions, and then discredit adoption. But since one does a piece of the pie represent the whole? In logic we call that a “faulty generalization” .

    But what you actually believe about adoption counts, and is important, I absolutely agree with that, it’s just that your story is not an accurate reflection of all international adoption. My daughter came from a country RAVISHED, and I mean RAVISHED by poverty. The only thing you want to do when your there is get the hell out of there and you feel disgustedly guilty that you only adopted one. You feel like your gd Shintler, but you came with the skimpiest list ever made. These kids were running up to me and calling me “mama” and grabbing my leg. They need mommas and daddy’s NOW, they need them right NOW. As we type, and debate and wax intellect about adoptee rights there are little kids having bad dreams with no one to come to them. Okay, Okay, be the cynic, call me a jesus loving savior, but I’m not! I’m a cynical, overeducated jaded atheist, who is absolutely not infertile, but who every once in a while remembers her history, and remembers what it’s like to live in a nasty ass trailer park, with no one who gave two shits about the fact that I probably had lice in my scalp for a year. And this was in AMERICA, the land of the prosperous. What do you think is happening to these kids in countries so poor that their mothers WILL sell them for money. And who gives two shits to the wind that I am the buyer (although you should really investigate where the cost goes, because i ASSURE YOU, no one is getting rich off adoption, the money is spread out to about fifteen different bureaucracies, so no one really can get rich).

    But you’re not really thinking about these kids, are you Mei-Ling? Because this is about you! And you know what, you have a right to make it about you, because making things about you is a right of passage, and your parents adopted you, and made sure you were in a position to take all kind of time to make it about you! But how long does it stay about you? It’s a sad world when you have to feel embarrassed because you wanna help out homeless kids, but the sideliners want to sit back and call you brown nosing do-gooders. You don’t scare me, you don’t make me want to help people in this country and other countries any less. In fact, you make me want to help even more, because i know that you are a healthy happy kid/adult who has enough confidence to write blogs and make them ABOUT YOU. But still, it saddens me that some potential AP’s read your account and they decide adoption is not for them, because they think” my adopted kids may turn out like little Mei-Ling”, as if something is actually wrong with you being a questioning, inquisitive person. But you know, maybe it’s good you scare the weaker off, because it;s not a cake walk when your dealing with adoption, there is loss, and it’s not easy to be part of a transracial adoption, so better that we have all the” Mei-Ling’s” of the world scare of the weaker minded anyway.

    I hope you agree.

    Dee

    March 15, 2009 at 1:28 am

  27. “Really it just means that it’s sometimes better to keep asking questions but not to pretend to have the answers because certain people always see about thirty ways to a story at once. It’s hard to blame anyone for anything when you see their side of it.”

    That’s why you made the assumption about my parents. Right? Because obviously adoption = willingly relinquished. That’s how you view it?

    “I don’t mean you personally, I mean anyone who has a similar story, and if you don’t fit that exact mold then what I am referring to just becomes hypothetical or generic.”

    Except that you called me out on it. You demeaned what I had to say.

    “I’m not saying your birth parents didn’t want you, but this is ADOPTION we are talking about here. Most, not ALL, but most adoptions that happen, happen because parents relinquish their children willingly.”

    And how many parents do you know who willingly relinquished their children when they DID have the resources/support to care for them, *excluding* foster care?

    “But since one does a piece of the pie represent the whole? In logic we call that a “faulty generalization.”

    And since where did I claim to know about all adoptees? Maybe you got that idea from eunmi38’s responses to you? She and I are not the same person. :\

    “it’s just that your story is not an accurate reflection of all international adoption.”

    Well, you asked me why I felt that I wasn’t intended to be adopted, and I told you why. You then proceeded to make all sorts of assumptions based on the “adoption” label.

    What did you want to hear?

    “My daughter came from a country RAVISHED, and I mean RAVISHED by poverty. The only thing you want to do when your there is get the hell out of there and you feel disgustedly guilty that you only adopted one. You feel like your gd Shintler, but you came with the skimpiest list ever made. These kids were running up to me and calling me “mama” and grabbing my leg. They need mommas and daddy’s NOW, they need them right NOW.”

    Well, obviously.

    “Okay, Okay, be the cynic, call me a jesus loving savior, but I’m not! I’m a cynical, overeducated jaded atheist, who is absolutely not infertile.”

    Wow, you really have been around the blogosphere, haven’t you? Sorry, but I’m not going to call you a greedy infertile. Others will no doubt do that job on other blogs if you should happen to come across them. That’s what they like to do, not me. I do not speak for them.

    “(although you should really investigate where the cost goes, because i ASSURE YOU, no one is getting rich off adoption, the money is spread out to about fifteen different bureaucracies, so no one really can get rich).”

    … Sure.

    “But you’re not really thinking about these kids, are you Mei-Ling? Because this is about you!”

    You asked. And you received.

    “And you know what, you have a right to make it about you, because making things about you is a right of passage, and your parents adopted you, and made sure you were in a position to take all kind of time to make it about you!”

    See above. If adoption isn’t about the child, then who is it about? The parents who want kids?

    “But how long does it stay about you? It’s a sad world when you have to feel embarrassed because you wanna help out homeless kids, but the sideliners want to sit back and call you brown nosing do-gooders.”

    Well, that isn’t me.

    “You don’t scare me, you don’t make me want to help people in this country and other countries any less.”

    I’m not sure where you got the impression that I’m trying to “scare” you. Quite the contrary. In fact, I’m surprised you haven’t cast the “bitter” label on me yet. Really, I am. Maybe you are in your head, I don’t know…

    “In fact, you make me want to help even more, because i know that you are a healthy happy kid/adult who has enough confidence to write blogs and make them ABOUT YOU.”

    … yes, that’s right. *My* blogs are about me. Does that surprise you?

    “But still, it saddens me that some potential AP’s read your account and they decide adoption is not for them, because they think” my adopted kids may turn out like little Mei-Ling”, as if something is actually wrong with you being a questioning, inquisitive person.”

    How do you know some potential APs have read my blog and decided adoption is “not for them”?

    “But you know, maybe it’s good you scare the weaker off, because it;s not a cake walk when your dealing with adoption, there is loss, and it’s not easy to be part of a transracial adoption, so better that we have all the” Mei-Ling’s” of the world scare of the weaker minded anyway.”

    I don’t care about scaring you off. I don’t care about showing APs off. I write what I think and what my experience has been.

    Speaking of blogs, I am not entirely sure why we are debating this here anyway. E-mail would have been a better way to do this, however, I’m not sure it would have been an entirely wise move. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground in this debate.

    Mei-Ling

    March 15, 2009 at 2:01 am

  28. ETA: I don’t have the patience for this anymore. I take my leave.

    Mei-Ling

    March 15, 2009 at 2:03 am

  29. ETA the 2nd: “I’m surprised you haven’t called me ‘bitter’ yet. Maybe you are [calling me bitter] in your head, I don’t know.”

    Just thought I should clarify that.

    Mei-Ling

    March 15, 2009 at 2:14 am

  30. ” “Thru Jesus, God adopts us.” Who came up with this line of BS?”

    It’s DIY theology: misinterpret scripture to fit your purpose. The Greek word “huiothesia,” which is sometimes translated as “adoption,” sometimes as “sonship,” in English Bibles, ultimately conveys information about a relationship between God and man – not between man and man. The belief that adoption as we know it today is what God had in mind in the five – yes, only five – Biblical passages in which this word appears is seriously misguided.

    If you really want to get depressed, find the website for “Christi*n W*rld Ad*ptions” and read their tagline.

    Margie

    March 25, 2009 at 8:32 pm

  31. I just want to vomit. They said publicly the first time they saw their child they burst out laughing ?

    Emilie

    October 23, 2011 at 11:02 am


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